Over the weekend this article was trending on my Facebook account.
Where Have all the Men Gone?
If you are a homeschool mom with boys, I think it is important that you read the article. Even if you don't agree with every word, and I don't, you will be challenged to think about these issues.
The premise of the article? "The way we raised boys in the faith 20 years ago eliminated the very kinds of men some women would love to be dating today"
When I went to church Sunday I talked to a mom sitting in front of me, not a homeschool mom, and she mentioned her 5th grade son didn't want to go to SS anymore for some of the very reasons stated in the article. I have blogged before how despicable I find the church culture that has everyone lining up nicely, putting their hands in their laps on cue and generally keeping in lock-step at all times, decently and in order, right?
Another friend mentioned this week that her Christian adult son had quit going to church. It is easy to dismiss this as a spiritual problem with the young man but what if it is not. What if the fault is with our system? My own adult sons have each had trouble feeling comfortable in church and at times have remained at home because of that discomfort. Eventually they return to church because they are raising families. And this is exactly why it is important for our young men to grow up, get married and have children. It is far more important for a young man to get married than have a career, sociologically. Marriage gives purpose to testosterone. It gives a young man something to 'fight' for, something to work for-his home and his family. I believe we are in deep, deep trouble culturally because of this issue alone. Even among Christians marriage is unpopular for young men. For hipsters, 30 is the new 20 and by then our young men have been hiding their darker, male side so long they barely register as men.
I have long believed that our culture has lost the concept of masculinity. Men make us uncomfortable.
Whenever I say that in a conversation, I am forced to qualify it because for some reason people are super afraid that somehow real men are bullies.
The article gets more controversial when it starts discussing dating vs. courtship. After our first few tries at following the courtship model, and two of our sons basically used that for their spouses, our family started moving away from it. It seemed particularly hard on young men. Our sons, not our first two because they already knew their future spouses quite well, were having to commit for a lifetime before they even got to know the girl. The whole idea that somehow the worst possible thing in life was a broken heart started feeling ridiculous. It also seemed like a girl should be protected from a broken heart at all costs but the boy's heart not so much.
And to tell truth our three married sons chose girls who were accessible, even when following the courtship model. And I have 3 super wonderful daughters-in-law who are each excellent mothers.
Slowly as our boys went away to college we began to look at relationships differently. We even allowed our 5th son to date a girl in high school. The relationship didn't last but he learned so much about the opposite sex and expectations from it. It seemed to us that dating was not preparation for divorce but, in fact, it was preparation for marriage. Sure, dating is dangerous but so is courtship. What could be more dangerous than going into a lifelong commitment without a true understanding of how relationships work? And doesn't marriage break your heart sometimes?
One of my biggest pet peeves these days is the ridiculous engagement story. I find it incredibly selfish that young girls expect these elaborate rituals and I wonder how many real men find that compelling. As Anna said on Downton Abbey last night, "I'd rather have the right man than the right wedding," and I would add the engagement to that.
Then perhaps the most controversial thing of all in the article is this:
"God has prepared one special person for you to marry. That's
right: Jesus is our heavenly matchmaker. You don't need to actively
search for a mate; simply pray and God will plop that perfect person
down in front of you one day."
I am a reformed Christian who believes in God's sovereignty and yet I see that this attitude causes great mischief. The worst thing is that it keeps young homeschooled girls from trying, from showing interest or even keeping up with themselves, even to think more highly of themselves than they ought.
The truth is young men will marry girls who are accessible. One friend who used to follow the courtship model even went so far as to tell me that her son ended up marrying the Christian girl who did dress a little flirty and not so buttoned up. She made herself attractive, not like a "insert bad girl word," but attractive.
That is how it works whether we like it or not. It is naive to think this is a spiritual problem. We have created such confusion over these issues that often desperate young women while refusing to make themselves attractive throw themselves at young men, calling them up constantly, texting and generally making fools of themselves on Facebook. I can count on more than one hand the number of girls who have outright asked my sons if they might be interested in them. If they were, they weren't anymore. Why do Christian girls do that now? It is truly pathetic, as if they have no understanding of masculinity at all. Are they so used to triumphing over boys culturally that they have failed to notice that men don't find that triumph attractive?
You can see there are lots of issues hanging in the article and no easy answers. One problem leads to another and it is hard to untangle exactly what is going on. My own thoughts are random and scattered over my experiences raising 8 boys and 1 daughter.
Have you experienced a lack of desire to go to church in your sons even while noticing spiritual desires?
Have you allowed your children to date?
Are you seeing a desire to marry among your sons?
What do you think is going on culturally?
Have you found any solutions to these issues?
My oldest son is courting a girl or whatever you call it, with fairly strict (but not draconian) supervision, but she is a girl he has known for sometime, and we have known her family for a while. Her father expressed to us a desire that they spend time together, not to rush a premature commitment, but so they can get a good idea if they are compatible. It seems to be a reasonable situation.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I highly doubt that the second son will follow that path, and it would probably do him some good to date a few girls.
Eva in AZ
What got into you? You are on fire, girl.
ReplyDeleteOh man, Cindy, you hit the nail on the head in several points.
ReplyDeleteThe church thing is interesting, and I'd love to hear more about why your sons have felt that way. One of our sons recently told us that while at our previous church he thought, "If this is Christianity, I want no part of it". That statement took my breath away, and made me very, very thankful to be in a church where grace abounds, where people's gifts are valued and used, where our teens are encouraged to love Jesus above anything else. Lockstep religiosity and law never saved anyone. It almost sabotaged my son's faith entirely. Now he's beating a path to missions because he's hot to spread the Gospel. What a difference!
I'll be honest. I'm not a fan of your blog, but I am a fan of this post. Well said.
ReplyDeleteMy own boys are still very small, so I don't have any parental experience. My own husband definitely went through a stage of hating church and only going because of the children, but ironically the church he has found that he is happy with has a woman pastor. I'm concerned that the counterbalance to the trends you describe (which I agree are problematic) tends to equate masculinity with grunting and killing small animals, which, as the mother of very verbal and abstract boys, also bothers me. What I would hope to see is a respect in the church for people as the individuals God made them to be.
ReplyDeleteAlso as someone who married through "courtship" (more or less--actually I was consciously interested first and my father contacted him, so that doesn't quite fit, does it?) I agree that the hyper-spiritualizing of the process has gone way too far. We did OK but I think it was in spite of, not because of, courtship, and looking back I wish we'd had the chance to let things unfold naturally and with fewer silly rules.
I read that article, too, Cindy, and then I sat here and felt so glad for the church we are attending. Starting in 5th grade, the SS teachers for the boys are men--strong, godly, men's men. In fact, the SS teacher for the 7th/8th grade boys is so fantastic and so well loved by the boys in our church that when his wife died unexpectedly a couple of weeks ago, there were probably 15-20 teenage boys at that funeral so they could "be there" for him. Our youth group leaders are elders who are, again, manly men. My boys LOVE church and are always happy to go. I am SO thankful.
ReplyDeleteI have my own concerns about the courtship model which are similar to yours. My oldest has been given the green light to date, if he desires, but although there is a girl he likes, he has told me that he needs to focus on his schoolwork right now and would rather just be friends with girls until the point that he is older and closer to being ready to think about marriage. I have told my boys that the girl's father should be part of the process but no one that we know in our church does courtship either so there wouldn't be much opportunity here.
Great post! Thanks for picking up on it. I agree that it is a crucial topic for those of us raising sons. I'm also aware that my church is unusual in its large number of "manly" men and that we are losing those type of men, the more we soften and feminize Christianity.
Cindy,
ReplyDeleteThese are great thoughts. I want to add one other nuance that I see as a problem with courtship. Our one experience with courtship was a very negative one. A young man from what seemed a very Godly family asked to court our daughter and, despite the fact that she was young for courtship, her maturity lead us to agree to this arrangement. This young man's family really looked at our daughter more as a product than a person. Their considerations seemed to hinge solely on how she could best serve their son, and they showed no interest in getting to know her as a person. In the end, the boy's mom decided that my daughter didn't pay enough attention to her and she very cruelly kicked my daughter out of her home. Then she proceeded to slander my daughter to her entire family and in the end the relationship was ended abruptly with the order not to make further comment with them in any way. They all blocked my daughter, my husband and me on Facebook, and don't even make contact with mutual friends. It was all very heartbreaking (not the break-up, but the way it was handled) and inhumane.
If God has ordained a spouse for my daughter (and I do believe He has), my hope is that this man will cherish her for who she is, for the talents God has blessed her with, and for her love for Chriist. And I hope she will cherish her husband for the same reasons. The two shall become one.
Where it is important for family to step in if they see something unwelcome in a potential spouse that their son or daughter may be overlooking, parents need to allow their children to develop relationships according to the person God has made them to be, not as part of trying to make their son or daughter who the parents want them to be.
Lori
I strongly agree on the point that was made concerning the view that there is only one person that God has appointed for you. That view point can lead to serious problem because when a marriage gets tough, and it will, then the person will always wonder if they really married "the one" or if there is someone out there who they are supposed to be with.
ReplyDeleteLori, your experience sounds VERY similar to our daughter's first courtship. We never knew what to call what we did after that, but probably "Christian dating with a view toward marriage". That worked much better, and she's happily married now.
ReplyDeleteCindy, I don't know if it's the structure of church so much as it is the psyche of men. We only went to churches that didn't have Sunday School or a youth group for many years. Among the kids that I've watched grow up in those settings (without effeminent programs or music), the young men struggle just as much--many leaving the faith or having only an arm's length relationship with the church. We noticed a disdain for the larger body of Christ in our own oldest two children, which is why we decided to leave that independent sort of church and go to a traditional church where there are folks from all walks of life and opinions on how to do ministry. We've been fortunate that the high school Sunday School and youth group are serious and taught by godly, strong men. Our youth group has some co-ed fellowship, but the boys and girls separate for their Bible studies and many fellowship activities. The younger ones, do not like being in classes with girls when they are at a disadvantage, and I have one son who doesn't care for "church". I've seen very good male teachers (former West Pointers) who knew how to teach young boys in Sunday School. It's best to keep young boys out of Sunday School until they are reading and writing well enough to keep up. I've noticed that it's only women teachers who have them doing all those worksheets.
Our oldest son didn't want to "date" when he was in high school, but he had friends with whom he did things in groups. Several homeschooled girls were forward and emailed him asking if he was interested in them, and that always made him run in the other direction. The very sweet, "buttoned-up" girls that I adored he was not interested in beyond friendship. As soon as he was away at college, he fell madly in love with a very sweet girl who was not so "buttoned up". She was not "forward", but her attractiveness was not hidden away. He was pursuing marriage from the get-go. If our remaining boys want to date in high school, we would let them within certain guidelines.
We were all standing around last summer, and one of our friends' little girls announced that one of my sons (age 10) was her boyfriend. Many years ago, that would have sent everyone we knew including us into a tizzy. Our children need our supervision and guidance, but they don't need a strangle hold on their affections. And after what I've seen happen to folks who have lived in that stranglehold (afraid to say anything or feel anything), I say we should rejoice when our young folks show interest in each other within our Christian community.
~Sandy
Andrea, Thanks?
ReplyDeleteLori, I think these sorts of situations are built into the courtship process because as Doug Wilson says (paraphrase): Instead of 2 sinners falling in love, you have 6 sinners involved in the process.
We went through something very similar but maybe it is good to go through it as we learned not to trust the courtship process.
And I have heard more stories than just ours. Human beings can get some pretty odd ideas.
(PS. Circe Room Booked!!)
Sandy,
ReplyDeleteMy friend, Linda, and I were talking the other day about the best 'youth group' our kids were ever in. It was one that grew up organically among the youth of a certain church we went to. The relationships were natural and dynamic and more than one marriage came from it, including one in our family. But that youth situation seems to have been a fluke.
Lori, YES! Your quote about young men and women being seen more as products than as people when following a strict courtship model is spot on! There are young folks who are encouraged to make lists of qualifications of the the man or woman who is worthy to sweep them off their feet, and while I agree that there must certainly be standards--and high ones at that--the only "person" able to meet the qualifications on some of these lists is Jesus Christ Himself!
ReplyDeleteSometimes I am afraid parents follow these "laws" of courtship because they are concerned that their friends and fellow church members will frown upon any other method they may choose, or worse yet, will disapprove of the "mate" their son/daughter has chosen. However, we must do what we believe to be best for our family. God is sovereign over all of these things!!!
"Many years ago, that would have sent everyone we knew including us into a tizzy."
ReplyDeleteGrady Clan, I think we're long lost pals ;) Your experience very much mirrors ours.
You inspired me to link to you again, Cindy.
ReplyDeleteVery well done, lady. Nothing I'd want to add to this one. As a mother of several daughters, I was glad to read an analysis of this from a mother of several sons.
I agree that some aspects of some churches alienate masculinity. However, I think broad generalizations are dangerous. I appreciate the efforts that courageous men like David Murrow and John Eldredge have done to bring attention to the problem that masculinity is not often viewed as spiritual. However, my worry is that to counteract this occasional problem, we have condemned ALL churches and may be in danger of swinging the pendulum too far to the other side. My daughter is much more physical and athletic than my two boys. She would love Sunday School that involved climbing and running. I am not an emotional person and hugging and hand-holding in church is not really my thing, either. Does that make me masculine? When we make ministry for men all about football and being outdoors, we make men who don't play sports think they aren't masculine. When we make ministry to women all about tea parties and scrapbooking, we make women who don't like those things feel like they aren't feminine. I think there's more that's ALIKE between the genders than there is that's different. I've seen plenty of churches that have the participation of young men, married men, and boys who are not "weird" and are not overpowered or outnumbered by women. I guess what I'm saying is, it's dangerous to look at a few churches with this problem and make a prediction and prescription for all others.
ReplyDeleteCindy,
ReplyDeleteRe: dating/courtship...I was much more rabid in these discussions when they were about my hypothetical children and what I was certain they would do one day. Reality is a much harder task master. In the long run, though, I see why God chose reality over our hypothetical-ness. It makes us grow up (parents and children alike.)
Church has been messy for us, and our two older sons are now going to a different church than we are. At first we got a little fussy about it, and then a wise woman from our church looked at me and said, "Your sons want to go to church?!? Isn't that terrific!" and I came to my senses.
Now, our sons want us to come to their church because they would like us to go to church together. And I suddenly feel like the rebellious child (which I should admit to enjoying a little too much.)
I think I will have a lot more to say in about ten years...maybe. But for now I am keeping these quotes:
"Marriage gives purpose to testosterone."
"The whole idea that somehow the worst possible thing in life was a broken heart started feeling ridiculous."
Amen, Cindy.
Diane
Okay, this is all very interesting to me...and on so many levels. My husband and I have been talking about our views on dating or courtship or whatever you call it. It is interesting because when I think of courtship (and granted I'm sure I haven't read any of the prescribed literature on this), I think of dating-towards-marriage. I think of having a little supervision and parental influence. I think of there being some sort of purpose other than prom and/or relieving boredom. What you described as courtship--and what was described in the comments--sounds a lot closer to arranged marriages. Am I wrong here?
ReplyDeleteI shy away from "dating" as a term because where I live that tends to be related to "hooking up" which tends to be *bad* ifyouknowwhatimean.
Fascinating stuff this.
And men *do* make us uncomfortable, don't they? Every once in a while my husband does something that makes me want to go hide in a hole. I'm not embarrassed, but it always seems like I am because I am just so...*horrified*! And now I am laughing at myself...I am *so* not a man, you know?
Cindy, I have read your blog for some time and really appreciate your wisdom and experience as a mother of sons. I have three myself, and my husband and I have recently been discussing one of the problems you addressed in this post--the fact that our older boys dread going to church, but they love to talk about spiritual things and both spontaneously profess their faith and exhibit clear spiritual understanding. Our church is grace-filled and theologically sound, and has been a huge blessing to us since we joined a few years ago, but we are obviously troubled by our sons' attitudes.
ReplyDeleteI do think the point in the article about church programs being tailored to girls is true. We have always had a children's bulletin to encourage the kids to draw pictures of the sermon as they listen. A few months ago, they began to print a copy of one the drawings from the previous Sunday. My oldest was very excited about the possibility of seeing one of his drawings on the bulletin the next Sunday, and faithfully submitted his drawings for several weeks. I have to add that he is quite a good artist for his age and always included as many details from the sermon as he could. One Sunday, though, he didn't draw anything and when I asked him about it, he said, "It doesn't matter, Mom. It's always going to be a girl's picture on the bulletin." I hadn't even noticed, but he was mostly right. He was discouraged because it was a little competition to him, but one in which he was consistently bested by one of the girls, all of whom generally drew hearts and flowers, and "I love Jesus", while he was trying to portray the actual image of Caesar on the denarius. However, in the process of competing, he was listening very intently to the message. But how do you point that out to the leadership without sounding whiny?
Thank you for a very timely post, and the encouragement in knowing that we are not alone in struggling with these issues. Thankfully, we are not into the courtship/dating issue quite yet, but I know it won't be long! ;)
Tracey in AL
Our oldest daughter had a somewhat 'traditional' courtship that ended in a solid marriage. But, even though we were involved, she was her own person and the young man lived out of state (where they currently live, now). This meant that there were times when she would go visit him for the weekend, staying with other friends. We had to trust her and the Lord in the process. I think this helped us hold the process more loosely.
ReplyDeleteOur oldest son was involved in a courtship that ended with the two remaining friends. I always felt that he could have ended the relationship, not just the young lady. I never felt that he'd made a commitment to marriage by initiating the courtship.
However, my second son is also interested in a specific young lady, but he hasn't done anything beyond friendship/singles' group activities with her as he's not ready to pursue the relationship - he's just started school and has had trouble finding a job. But, he is motivated and this young lady is part of it.
All four of my sons are interested in spiritual things, but they never attended SS growing up. We always kept them in the adult service with us. We discuss the sermon together over Sunday dinner and, because we've all heard the same teaching, we can all hold one another accountable (which means my husband and me, too!).
I just want to subscribe and listen in. :)
ReplyDeleteMy husband and I courted, in the mild sense of the word (Matt asked my dad before talking to me, but we went out on "dates", but we were also 17). I don't think it's a good idea to prescribe formulas for such an individual thing; everyone's stories are different, and that's a good thing.
Too bad, though, because at this point, I think I could arrange my children's marriages pretty neatly. :) Guess it's a good thing you have to go through nearly 20 years of parenting before getting to that stage.
Thank you for this very interesting post and linking article. We have a son just beginning to navigate the relationship waters.
ReplyDeleteThe concept that God is out arranging marraiges made me think of a quote my Dad gave me when I was dating a less than desirable candidate, "Girls in Detroit marry boys in Detroit." I think his point was that there are probably many men out there that would have been a suitable mate for me and that I needed to use my God given discernement in figuring out who was best suited to be my husband. I also think he didn't want me settling for the first interested guy that came along.
I didn't marry the less than desirable guy. A couple of years later I met a manly guy who came from a similar background as I and held the same values. There is a feeling that we were made for each other (married 21 years now) but in many ways we have grown into eachother.
Anyway, I don't think it's too good an idea to be too hung up on ONE SPECIAL PERSON. There are many special people out there. We need to teach our young people discernment about the opposite sex and how to treat each other as God has shown us.
A couple of thoughts: I also read the article "Where Have all the Men Gone?" and, like you, felt he made some good points but I didn't agree with everything. In my opinion, the shift away from teaching youth biblical truth straight from the Bible toward using topical studies has not done the church much good. Young people are already bombarded with information about the opposite sex, sexual activity, fill in the blank worldly attitudes/actions both at school and from popular culture in general. While youth leaders will defend bombarding kids in youth group with the same exact information by saying, "This time it's from a Christian perspective" I think that simply teaching Scripture with some discussion on life application would be better than week after week of topical studies which, from my own family's experience, can often be boring and even counterproductive. It's not so important to know which Bible verses apply to which worldly behaviors. It's more important to comprehend that God is Sovereign over all the earth and over the life of a Christian. We should be teaching youth to love Him with all their heart and soul and strength. We should be teaching them how awesome, creative, and wonderful He is. Behavior will fall in line as we know Him better and love Him more. The only way to know Him better is to read and digest His word. And whether one is male or female is irrelevant at the point at which one opens His Word. I'll only add that I am no fan of churches that try to be "entertaining" as a means to get the attention of the young. Isn't God's Word sufficient? Isn't the Holy Spirit a powerful force that changes hearts and minds and lives? Do we really believe this? Or are we going to continue to try and stay ahead of whatever pop trend is out there while delivering a warm and fluffy message to our kids?
ReplyDeleteThought two: Our family followed a kind of modified courtship routine with my eldest daughter. I think the strict courtship model is too rigid, but that's a discussion for another day. Anyway, we did not allow one-on-one dating until she was eighteen but, until then, she was allowed to go on "group dates" with a variety of friends. In the meantime, starting when she was about 12 years old, I asked her to make a list of qualities she wanted in a friend. I also asked her how well she stacked up as a friend when compared to her own list! Next, I asked her to make a list of qualities she wanted in a spouse. The top of that list had to be "shares my love of and commitment to Jesus Christ". Everything on the first list should have transferred over to the second list. Maybe it seems like a silly exerecise, but it got her thinking about the kind of person she would be looking for as well as the kind of person she should be to attract that kind of person. The man she eventually married was someone she had known and been friends with since she was 8-years-old. He was the only person she ever "dated" but you don't need to date someone to know them...or yourself. As you say, you just need to accessible, or open to friendship.
Finally, I'll close by saying that, in my humble opinion, a broken heart is no joke. Been there, done that. It's not worth it. It can destroy every decent feeling you have about yourself and others. I'm not talking about getting over a crush. I'm talking about engaging in a "serious" relationship only to have it fall apart. One way to avoid such a thing is to honest with yourself about your goals for your life and the kind of person with whom you want to share that life. Make a list. ;)
Brandy~"Courtship" according to the approved books and testimonies goes like this:
ReplyDeleteStep 1: God reveals to a young man whom he is to marry. Bonus points if he is not at all attracted to her and/or her existence is pointed out to him by an authority figure.
Step 2: He gets his parents' permission to proceed. They may resort to various stratagems to get to know the girl without arousing her suspicion.
Step 3: He asks her father for permission to court. This begins a months-long vetting process similar to that used by the Secret Service, but more intrusive.
Step 4: He is given permission by the father to "win his daughter's heart." Bonus points if she has no clue that anything is going on until now. Double bonus if she initially thinks he's icky.
Step 5: The young man tries to "win the girl's heart," under close supervision and advisement by her father, and without getting too emotionally involved. The girl finally receives a divine revelation that she is to marry him, and lets her father know, who then tells the young man he can bring out a ring. At no time during this process are they ever without supervision by a parent or nosy sibling.
Step 6: The parties are now allowed to become emotionally attached, but must still avoid physical contact. (Not kissing is obligatory; not holding hands gets you bonus points). They also must still never be alone together.
Step 7: They get married, have their first kiss, and waltz off into the blissful life reserved for those who wait for "God's best."
Note that many teachers find this too liberal, as there is still the possibility of emotional attachment without firm commitment.
Queen of Carrots -- LOL. So true. So sad. I read "Waiting for Her Isaac" when I was 16 and was so glad my parents thought it was as awful as I did. Shudder. I had a grand time ranting and raging about it with my friends. :)
ReplyDeleteQueen of Carrots, for a moment I thought I might know you because your description of courtship sounds exactly like people we know locally. But I see that you are not from my neck of the woods.
ReplyDeleteGood job summing up "courtship"!
~Sandy
I really disagree with your assessment of courtship. It sounds like you are talking about arranged betrothments and not true courtship. True courtship is dating towards marriage with all the technical stuff talked about in the first few dates. To see if there is anything in common with their expectations, interests and goals. I would run from the committed before I met you relationship in a heartbeat. But for their to be random dating with no expectation, just to see how the other sex is like is extremely irresponsible and there is no biblical basis for that sort of relationship. I am currently writing a series of articles describing true courtship if you want to read it, send me your link and I will send you a copy. Homeschool23@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteAnne,
ReplyDeleteI wanted to respond to your thoughtful comment. I understand what you are saying and yes, you are right these are generalizations. The comments are always helpful in fleshing out particulars. On the other hand without the generalizations of ideas we cannot as humans communicate at all. Each commenter has their own experience but the commonalities among those experiences give us something to talk about.
But I do understand what you are saying as I am not particularly interested in those feminine church activities and all manly men are not interested in sports or hunting.
My son noted that while not all men are masculine in the same way there is a tendency for the church to idealize the less masculine men making church unpleasant for some men.
Even though I agree with what you are saying mostly, I do think this is a huge problem just coming to the surface, but I base that on what I am seeing among some of the very nicest Christian young men.
Maricam, my disagreement with him was the same as yours. You said:
ReplyDelete"In my opinion, the shift away from teaching youth biblical truth straight from the Bible toward using topical studies has not done the church much good."
I believe that many young people are leaving church because they are bored to death with twaddle and much of the Christian culture in general is twaddle and I know that is one thing that discourages my own sons.
We also did not participate in SS etc for years and years and then when we did I was shocked at how dumbed down it had all become.
Queen of Carrots, Funny but true. One other reason I feel courtship fails is that each family has its own ideas about what it is. To some it is just restricted dating and to others it is essentially an arranged marriage.
ReplyDeleteHyssop97, Pretty sure I would not agree with your assessment but I will say that our boys approached all girls with such seriousness of purpose that I eventually wondered if maybe we should have taught them to loosen up. On the other hand I am not exaggerating when I say that each of our sons has an excellent wife,through dating and through modified courtship. A high view of marriage and virginity can be a part of dating as well as courtship.
I am grateful for this post for two main reasons...
ReplyDelete1. The topic of dating/courtship is a significant one in our home these days, as our children get older. They are not "there" yet, but it's comin'. So I'm always glad for experienced thought on the matter. It's increasingly clear that this matter is one that can't be prescribed in advance. Sure, there are principles, but the practice is going to have a lot to do with circumstances.
2. This is making me more grateful for my church and our "simple" approach to things. We don't have lots of programs, so people of all ages participate in the whole life of the church. We have some amazing young men in our church who serve by reading Scripture during worship, passing out food from our food pantry, cutting the grass, and passing the plate, among many other things. When the men of our church get together for one reason or another, it is assumed that this means "men of all ages". The young people in our church spend lots of time together, but it tends to happen naturally, rather than in the context of some organized youth activity. I'm not saying youth group and children's Sunday School are evil, but I'm glad we don't do those things at our church.
So thanks for reminding me about some of the things I love about my church.
As always,your deep thoughts lead to deep thoughts. Thank you Cindy. And the flip side of the church emphasizing femininity is the Mark Driscoll's of the world over-promoting it. That is creating just as much havoc in Church life.
ReplyDeleteCindy,
ReplyDeleteI think we all yearn for church to be "life together," as Bonhoeffer called it. But the institutional church today (and maybe always, I don't know) seems to aim at "life as it ought to be" rather than "life as it is". And I think the former is more attractive to women, while the second suits men better.
Because of your earlier post, I went back to read Conrad's Heart of Darkness for the umpty-umpth time. Sometimes I think the truths of the universe are embedded in that story (or, to use Marlow's metaphor, it is a tale that is capable of illuminating those truths, much as a light shows us the misty fog that was there all the time.) Here's what Conrad has to say about church/Western civilization and its mission. (Please excuse the extended excerpt, but if I just quoted the critical bit folks would be likely to dismiss it out of hand as ignorant sexism.)
One thing more remained to do—say good-by to my excellent aunt. I found her triumphant. I had a cup of tea—the last decent cup of tea for many days—and in a room that most soothingly looked just as you would expect a lady's drawing-room to look, we had a long quiet chat by the fireside. In the course of these confidences it became quite plain to me I had been represented to the wife of the high dignitary, and goodness knows to how many more people besides, as an exceptional and gifted creature—a piece of good fortune for the Company—a man you don't get hold of every day. Good heavens! and I was going to take charge of a two-penny-halfpenny river-steamboat with a penny whistle attached! It appeared, however, I was also one of the Workers, with a capital—you know. Something like an emissary of light, something like a lower sort of apostle. There had been a lot of such rot let loose in print and talk just about that time, and the excellent woman, living right in the rush of all that humbug, got carried off her feet. She talked about 'weaning those ignorant millions from their horrid ways,' till, upon my word, she made me quite uncomfortable. I ventured to hint that the Company was run for profit.
And now here comes the punch line:
'You forget, dear Charlie, that the laborer is worthy of his hire,' she said, brightly. It's queer how out of touch with truth women are. They live in a world of their own, and there had never been anything like it, and never can be. It is too beautiful altogether, and if they were to set it up it would go to pieces before the first sunset. Some confounded fact we men have been living contentedly with ever since the day of creation would start up and knock the whole thing over.
I read the article and passed it along to a few of the men in the church I serve as a pastor. I've been observing this trend for years and think it is a serious problem. In our attempts to remake the Church in our own politically-correct image we have succeeded in driving a generation of men and, to a large degree, their young families, away not only from Christ but also from honorable and responsible roles in society.
ReplyDeleteNow trying to dig up more opportunities to work specifically with those very manly second-graders in our congregation!
Ooops. My comment under Anonymous which is me(!), Andrea was meant to say----the Mark Driscoll's of the world are trying to curb the trend of feminized churches and are hence, over-promoting masculinity. There are repercussions to jumping from one side of the ditch to the other.
ReplyDeleteRick and Dave,
ReplyDeleteYou came along just as I suspected this conversation had become what Rick said, a female version of reality.
Rick, I thought your post was incredibly insightful and convicting.
Dave,
I felt pretty sure that the problem is a growing one but it is nice to know that pastors out there are aware of it. Your own story of becoming a pastor in mid-life is also somewhat pertinent to this topic. Do you find a traditional liturgy more appealing to men? I suspect it may be.
Andrea,
Thanks for the clarification. I thought that is what you meant but I haven't really paid much attention to Driscoll so I wasn't sure if he was super masculine or a little fruity. I am really not a fan of the Eldridge books myself.
I am guessing less introspection and more God worship is what would appeal to more men. Something outside of themselves and not within.
I also suspect that more liturgical, God-centered worship (seems like "God-centered worship" should be redundant, but sadly...) is more appealing to men.
ReplyDeleteBTW, the earlier "anonymous" post about my appreciation for my church was me.
One of the factors which moved our family into traditional liturgy was the solidity of it. We disliked the "love song to Jesus" type of worship and found that in many circles of broader evangelicalism there seemed to be a big focus on our own emotional response rather than the work of Christ as that which is outside of ourselves.
ReplyDeleteThere's something very solid about the historic liturgy which I think appeals to men and also gives women a sense of security. None of that shifting sand.
Wow Cindy, thanks so much! All of this is so interesting to me. I'll just keep listening in, here. (My boys are 17 and 14, and girls are 12, 10 and 7.) I just wanted to say thank you.
ReplyDeleteOur sons, not our first two because they already knew their future spouses quite well, were having to commit for a lifetime before they even got to know the girl. The whole idea that somehow the worst possible thing in life was a broken heart started feeling ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteThis resonates with me right now with my oldest dating/courting a young lady. Funny but this is really how my daughter felt when a young man approached dh in order to date her....she was appalled that someone was committing before they knew each other. Of course, as Providence would have it, they had a rough start but things are going swimmingly now. If I had it to do all over again, no way would we expect a courtship type beginning. Too much pressure from both sides.
That was my comment above as anonymous Laura from classed :)
ReplyDeleteI know I'm a little late to the party, but here's some more food for thought. God, in His perfect wisdom, gave Adam and Eve very few rules when it came to obeying in the garden. When they tried to add to those rules, they got in trouble. Do we cause our kids to stumble by making things too difficult for them? When we say "don't don't don't" too many times, are we pushing them the opposite direction?
ReplyDeleteAnd in another unrelated observation... I've been to a wedding where the first kiss was on the altar. Ewwww!!!!!! It was VERY uncomfortable for most of us watching.
Love the baseball banner! Welcome spring and Go Scots!!! and Go (Benjamin's team)!
I put James up there because this is his last season :(
ReplyDeleteBenjamin plays for the Chatt State Tigers (I think).
Thank you, friend...
ReplyDeleteI followed Queen of Carrots' courtship outline almost to a T, including some of the bonus points. Thank God he worked in spite of that and gave me a wonderful man and we have a wonderful marriage, but gosh...While I believe it is wise to have some guidelines in place (particularly for teens), I am not a fan of the courtship model...Not at all...At least not like that.
ReplyDeleteWe're more "date for a purpose" types, as in don't date until you're really in a position that this could be the person for you, and you can get married within a few years. The girls are good with that, and have always had a lot of friends of both sexes.
ReplyDeleteWhat's starting to worry me, though, is that my daughters will assume that the first person they date will be the one they will/should marry. It's not that we've told them it has to be that way; it's just that with all the emphasis on marriage, they're thinking marriage, and I'm not sure the guys are. I want them to have seen a bit more of the world before they choose forever, and that's what has me a little worried!
I think because they're looking to date to marry, they also assume that they'll marry by 21 or 22. I've talked to them about that, and told them that many people just don't meet the guy til they're older, but I don't want them getting paranoid about it.
I do think that perhaps there's been too much of a pendulum swing towards the courtship model, which puts so much pressure on kids before they really know what they want. And then the girls can start developing really low self-esteem--why aren't I married yet? It really is tough to find the right balance, but I'll just keep trying to open those lines of communication with the girls!
I did write a column recently on the 4 Things You Need in a Husband which I completely stand by. But I worry that girls will be too enamored with the idea of marriage at age 19 or 20 that they won't have the maturity to really judge whether those things are present!
Shelia, I really liked your column! And I agreed with it in all respects...except one. Mutual attraction is important. "Good-Looking" is in the eye of the beholder, or perhaps in the pheromones. You are correct that attraction grows best out of friendship, but it should be there before they consider marriage...along with your other four requirements. Arranged marriages might work in other cultures, but in ours, I would think a girl was marrying a guy out of pity if she wasn't attracted to him.
ReplyDeleteAnd you are so right about keeping up girls' spirits while they are waiting for the right guy. I remind them that guys' hearts move slower than theirs. And young men may find them very attractive but not be ready to move forward to a committment. Guys don't usually pick friends that they don't find attractive, and it's possible for them to "like" several girls when they aren't ready to commit. But when they fall, they fall just as hard as girls. And nice guys are often waiting to see more than just "attractiveness". They are looking for someone who suits them in other ways as well. For girls the key is patience. Be friendly with guy friends, but don't ever be pushy. A gal needs her own agenda and should be busy developing her own gifts and talents. It's a struggle, but they should keep praying for peace to trust God's timing. It's important for older women in the church to take these gals under their wings and befriend them.
Kudos!
~Sandy